A looooong conversation on free will, which mutated into something else

[Note: this Mr. X is not the immigration guy. a different person altogether, just using the name Mr. X to conceal his identity.]


Me:
hi Mr. X =)

i was thinking about what you said the other day, about the question of free will being moot... do i correctly understand this as meaning that you believe that free will does not exist?

doesn't this kinda cause some problems for Christianity, e.g. how can God create creatures that have no free will and yet hold them responsible for their actions? how do you get around problems like that?

i guess i could ask the same question to a strict Calvinist, but i wondered what your take on it was. =)


Mr. X:
Yes you understand me correctly, to the effect that free will does not exist in the magical sense that many people believe it to exist in.

No, it seems you have not yet understood that no magic is required for systems to employ/deploy the concepts of guilt, punishment, and responsibility. For example, it's easier to note that 1990s Walkmans have no free will, are guilty of obsolescence, and are systematically punished with extinction and the ridicule of antiquity.

To bridge this with Christianity you only need to understand how Walkmans, cockroaches and people are all governed by fairly deterministic processes.

Here's a reference to the classical solution (see 3.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antinomy

If you and your friends would like to discuss this further, let me know. The classic text referred to above is The Critique of Pure Reason, and it is critically boring, FTW.


Me:
hmm, the walkman analogy is a good one. alternatively, slightly closer to the Christian idea of heaven and hell, free-will-less shirts which are guilty of being defective are punished by being sent to reject shops to be sold, whereas those with the merit of meeting standards of quality control are rewarded by being sent to glamorous official distributors.

however, before this i've always thought of this transaction involving a choice, an exercise of free will - whether or not to believe in God, Jesus, and etc. i've also always thought of the Bible as exhorting us to choose to do acts of righteousness and justice. if there's no free will, then what's the point of all that? just empty rhetoric?

i can understand many of the arguments for determinism. however i do not think that they are conclusive. for example, it is possible to imagine 2 men for whom deterministic elements - genes, environment, etc - are considered equal, and yet their lives may have very different ends. would i be wrong in saying that it was their exercise of choice and free will which made the difference?

one more thing - the genesis creation account tells us that man was created in God's image. i'm not sure if this falls into the category of magical thinking, but this is a distinction which cockroaches and walkmans do not share. therefore if i believe that God has free will, it is quite possible that one of the things implied by our being created in His image is that we have free will too.


Mr. X:
Here's the short cut - the choices you make are the result of the information that is made available to you.


Me:
hmm, but two people who obtain the same information may make different choices based on it...!

i guess that choice of what to do with the information is influenced by deterministic factors like genetics, environment and etc. but like the example i gave earlier, if there are two men in whom those factors are equal... doesn't their course of action then boil down to their choice?


Mr. X:
You forgot that before they got the same information at T=0, they had different information at T=-1, -2, -3, etc.

:)


Me:
this would work if people were rational all the time. but they're not, therefore their choices are not influenced solely by information, right?


Mr. X:
We started with the premise that people are rational (determined within a system which can be described rationally). In order to falsify the premise, you need to be producing evidence/examples that falsify the premise... not simply assuming the opposite :)


Me:
ok sorry... can i play the i'm-not-a-philosopher-so-my-thinking-processes-are-rather-fuzzy card? lol

anyway, excuses for sloppy thinking aside, a few more questions...

in your understanding, people go to hell (i'm assuming that you believe in hell... do you?) because they lack information?

also, people lie and steal and generally sin because they lack information?

i need to chew on this abit more... it seems hard to swallow.


Mr. X:
Hell? I don't pretend to know anything about hell,or heaven for that matter. Chew away.

[after an interval of a few weeks for chewing]


Me:
hi Mr. X =)

as i was chewing over this, i realised that my main reasons for believing in free will are rooted in the bible... God often seems to exhort people to make choices, which seems farcical if people don't have free will (e.g. "choose this day whom you shall serve..."). but of course, it also has verses that imply determinism (e.g. "predestined before the foundation of the world..."), which leads to the classic predestination vs. free will debate in christian circles.

i don't understand it fully, but as i read my bible i find that it speaks of both free will and predestination... therefore a fully biblical perspective cannot major on one or the other, but must hold both in tension.

what is your take on this? how does the bible affect (if it does) your POV on our apparent lack for free will?


Mr. X:

Do you even understand the process of reading? What happens to dots on paper that are captured by the iris of your eye? That's a good place to begin the dissection of text.


Me:
err, the eye creates signals which are sent to the brain, which recognises the symbols that the dots are arranged in.

the symbols (letters, words, phrases... whole pages, for speed-readers) have meanings associated with them, and (if it's not a nonsensical piece of writing) these are combined into a meaningful message.

have i gotten it right so far?

Mr. X:
What are meanings?


Me:
well, letters are associated with sounds... strung together in the right sequence, they become sounds associated with certain ideas... like 'b', 'a' and 'g' combined makes the sound 'bag' which brings to mind a pouch-like thingy that you can keep stuff in, with straps that you can sling around your body parts for ease of carriage.


Mr. X:
Righto - but at some point they have to refer to sensations right?


Me:
erm yeah, sounds are sensations. and we know what a bag is primarily by sight, which is also a sensation.

how does this connect with my original question again? lol


Mr. X:
Ok. Now we need to begin to map out in terms of sensations, what you mean by every word in your original question.


Me:
original question: "how does the bible affect (if it does) your POV on our apparent lack for free will?"

i'm not sure how to do this. what sensation, for example, corresponds with "how"?

does it really have to be this complicated?


Mr. X:
Yes. Let me know when you have thought about it, and have something to say :)


[after another interval of a few weeks, for thinking]


Me:
hi Mr. X. i encountered two problems when thinking about this.

firstly, i don't know how to translate concepts and ideas into sensations.

example 1: "how" at the beginning of a sentence tells me that it's an enquiry as to method, process, etc... but i have no idea what sensation that is.

example 2: "bible" brings to mind a thick, leather-bound book embossed with the words "Holy Bible" on the cover, with thin pages and words interspersed with big numbers denoting chapters and small numbers denoting verses. those are the sensations that are associated with the word, primarily through touch and sight (i don't often smell or taste my bible). however, the word "bible" is also associated with the concept of God's Word, which Christians believe is eternal, authoritative, and true. how do you translate that concept into sensations?

secondly, what does it mean to map out the sentence in terms of sensations? no matter how i explain the sentence, i'll still be using words. those words then would have to be further explained or mapped out, ad infinitum. therefore, i need to know what are the irreducible sensations to use - words which do not need further explaining and mapping out. i also need to know what to do if there are words or phrases that can't be mapped out in those irreducible sensations.

some help?


Mr. X:
Good questions, I'll get back to you when I have more time to read. I must warn you however, that it is more time effective to sit down and work through this stuff in conversation. Anyway. Whatever works.


[after a few days...]


Mr. X:
re: firstly - well then all there is left for you to do, is to learn how. Keep thinking about it. If you want a tutorial, we should meet up for 30 minutes to an hour. More value-for-time if you have other interested parties so that we can do a group training, btw.

re: secondly - see above.

[so... what do you think of this conversation? feel free to comment on free will, predestination, or the strange turn the conversation took into linguistics and sensations. anyone interested to meet up with Mr. X to learn how to map sentences in terms of irreducible sensations? i doubt there'll be much response, but no harm asking. the meeting would have to be in kl/pj, though. =)]

Taman Connaught SCF

i had some problems going to Taman Connaught SCF the other day.

i got out of my office at 11.30am, nice and early. i waited outside my office for a taxi. one came along. i stopped it. after a short conversation, it went off.

without me.

repeat the above five or six times. what was the problem? every time i said "connaught?" they said, "cannot!".

by this time it was already 12.00pm,and i was in danger of being late for the SCF meeting. so i went back in to the office and asked around for help. thank God, one of my colleagues, Siew Meng, was kind and generous enough to lend me his car! =)

well, it was actually his sister-in-law's car, as his car was in the workshop... but that just makes his willingness to lend it to me all the more amazing, no? anyway, so i started driving to Taman Connaught.

not being familiar with the car caused abit of frustration and trouble. for example, every time i wanted to indicate a right of left turn i ended up activating the windshield wipers instead.

i'm also quite bad at roads and directions, so all the way i was praying that God would help me find the way to the school and help me get there on time.

i was driving, so obviously i couldn't scrunch myself up like this.
i think my heart was in this posture though. =P

and God was gracious to me; i got there safe and sound and without a second to spare. =)

i did a session with them about worldviews. just an introduction to the concept and to some broad overviews of different ones, which i hope will start them thinking and forming a true Christian worldview.

thank God for His hand with me throughout all this! =)

p.s. if you're wondering how come i can blog from staff consultation, it's because staff consultation has been postponed. why was it postponed? that's a good question. the answer is shrouded in mystery. none of us know. we just got a brief email to that effect on friday evening, without much by way of explanation. *plays creepy music*

the good thing about that is, i can go home to The Wife for these few days instead of being stuck, err i mean being actively involved, in interminable meetings. =P

singapore and TUMC Camp

i had a great time in singapore. =)

i got to reconnect and ber-bonding with The In-Laws. =)

i got to meet up and catch up with old, dear friends in Singapore... people i value and treasure from our secondary school days in sitiawan. =)

i got to visit Singapore Zoo with The Wife and The In-Laws... the "open zoo" concept is simply amazing, and gives great opportunities to observe the animals up-close and personal. i left awed by the beauty, majesty and variety of God's creation. =)

i had a great time in TUMC Camp, too. =)

i learnt the names of some church members [which i hope i can still remember when i see them in coming sundays]. =)

i played saboteur, basketball, volleyball, and swam in the swimming pool. =)

i listened to sessions and thought about what it meant for the church to be a transforming community, while trying to help some of the youth stay awake. =)

i'll be doing the following things in the coming weeks:
- planning meeting for National School Christian Fellowship Leaders' Camp ~ 18 June
- speaking at an SCF in Taman Connaught ~ 19 June
- staff consultation, where we lay plans for 2010 ~ 22-25 June
- speaking at St. Mary's SCF ~ 26 June
- attending Li Yit and Lydia's wedding ~ 27 June

keep me in prayer ya. and drop a comment or a note on the chatbox to keep in touch. 'till the next post, God bless! =)

interesting arguments

greetings from singapore! =)

here's an update of what happened on facebook after my comments on Mr. X's status update concerning emigration:


Friend #1:
talk cock. move out means disobey calling of the Lord, means selfish, and it is a fault for CHRISTIANS to move out?

bunch of talk cock people.dun worth my time reading it.but good for people like u.

Friend #2:
Who are we to judge what others should or shouldn't do with their lives? Have you ever thought maybe God has a different purpose for him or those who migrated? Maybe God wanted to mold him/them elsewhere so they will be ready to serve Him when they come back? Just because your way of loyalty is shown by staying at your birth country doesn't mean those around you should do the same. At the end of the day, it is you yourself who have to answer to God for the decisions you made in your life, not your loved ones/family/supporters/critics.

My Reply #1:
if you read what i wrote, you'll notice that i never said that tristan was definitely in the wrong. i merely raised questions.

i am sure that some of those who emigrated are sincerely and truly following God's calling. but i'm not sure if all of them are. especially when most of them are emigrating to "better" countries, e.g. u.s.a, australia, etc. Strange that God calls them only to those countries, and not to poorer countries like cambodia or vietnam or bangladesh eh? but of course, God works in mysterious ways.

all i want to do is to spur tristan, and any other Christians, who are thinking of emigrating, to seriously look at their own motives. if, as ricky says, tristan can honestly tell me that he wants to leave malaysia because God is calling him to, and not because he just wants to chase a better life, then that's great.

Friend #1, sorry if i offended you. it's not talking cock, at least not if you care about God and what He wants.

p.s. Friend #2, if they plan to come back to malaysia, that's a different story. that's very commendable, because it will definitely be hard to come back and start all over again. but what i was refering to was a permanent move, which if i read tristan's words correctly, is what tristan was referring to.


Friend #2's response:
Nor did I said anything about who is right or wrong. Again I would like to repeat, who are we to question their motives, genuine or otherwise? That's strictly between God and themselves personally.

Using a quote, "The right to disagree, The duty to support". We can all disagree on everything all day long but we should support our fellow brothers and sisters as long as we exist, no matter the choices they made, be it good or bad(subjective matter). Life is hard enough as it is, why should we make it harder for them and ourselves? We can only give guidance and advice but ultimately the choice is still made by them themselves, and they will have to live with the choices they made the rest of their lives, again be it good or bad choices.


My Reply #2:
Being able to question one another's motives is part of being an authentic community and keeping each other accountable. i would appreciate it if my brother-in-Christ questioned my motives and helped me see if i were really doing my best to follow Christ in all that i do. (of course it would be best if he could do it in a non-threatening way in which i did not feel attacked... and if i've failed in that, please forgive me.)

good and bad is not a purely subjective matter. there is an absolute standard of Good. as Jesus said, God alone is Good. and His standards are revealed to us in His word. as we claim to be His followers, we have a responsibility to help each other in growing to be like Him. a true friend would not support his friend's wrong decisions - and would question, guide and advise his friend on those decisions - although he would always be there to support his friend.

thanks for your sms yesterday Mr. X - appreciate it. =)


Re: the SMS, i was on the way home from work, slightly shaken by the comment that i was "talking cock", when i received an sms from Mr. X. In that sms, he basically said that he'd read my comment, and after thinking about it, he agrees with me. he told me that he'd typed that status update in an emotional moment caused by some unfair mistreatment he'd suffered.

Re: supporting friends and supporting friend's decisions, i'd like to add this illustration: if a friend of mine decided to start abusing drugs, i'd be 100% against his decision, and i would not be shy to let him know that fact. but if as a result of that decision he ended up homeless, i'd be glad to open my house for him to crash in. i hope that helps to show the distinction between supporting a friend and supporting his decisions.

alright, why am i still in front of the computer? i should be enjoying singapore! tata for now, folks! =)

Let's get out of here! (...not!)

hullo readers! =) i just got back from bukit bintang boys' school, where i did a session on Programme-Planning for the SCF with their SCF Committee members. the session went well, i think... thank God. seriously, every time i do a session or preach or etc, i am amazed by His grace that sees me through. =)

now, in reference to the title, i came across a facebook status update by a friend of mine that said [paraphrased and name changed], "Mr. X is not happy with malaysia.... and demands a move out." in the comments following this status update, Mr. X clarified his stand with these words: "I just need to move out as soon as my education finishes. Meaning degree overseas and never return."

the high frequency of Christians emigrating has long been a sore point for me. i responded with the following comments:

comment #1 (upon first reading Mr. X's status update):
what makes u so sure u'll be happier elsewhere?

Apostle Paul learnt to be content in all circumstances... i think that happiness ultimately comes from knowing God, regardless of outside circumstances. if you can't find it here, i doubt that moving out will help much.

comment #2 (after his clarifying comment):
i would then ask, is it right for a christian to move out of his/her own country simply because he/she thinks he/she'll be happier elsewhere? are we called to be comfortable and to seek our own pleasure? is this following one's own selfish desires, or following the calling of the Lord?

"statistics show that in 2001, at least 35 percent of Malaysian immigrants to Australia were Christians. This is a highly disproportionate figure in view of the fact that Christians form only 9 percent of the Malaysian population." i'm not saying that it is always wrong to emigrate - but looking at these figures, something is certainly wrong somewhere.

did God place us in Malaysia simply so that we can run away at the first opportunity?

Comment #3:
p.s. the figures quoted in my comment above are taken from bishop hwa yung's article, which can be found here: http://kebaktian.blogspot.com/2007/04/patutkah-umat-kristian-berhijrah.html

i think the article is a must-read for any christian who is contemplating emigration.

I welcome comments. hope i did not offend anyone too badly.=P

Other news in bullet points:

- i came back from DMSJ [the combined church camp i mentioned a couple of blog posts ago] 3 days ago. it was awesome! the weather was so hot that i ate an icecream everyday. a cold icecream on a super-hot day is a foretaste of Heaven. and 4 churches [not 3, sorry, got it wrong in the previous blog post] being able to worship, have fun, and learn and grow in God's Word together is, i think, an even greater foretaste of Heaven. plus, all my teaching and games sessions went well. thank you for supporting me in prayer! =)

- i'll be in singapore from tomorrow to tuesday, helping The Wife's bro move house. he's graduated and ready to enter the busy world of work! anyone in singapore wanna meet up? i may sms some of you after i post this. =)

- TUMC [that's my church la, Taman Ujong Methodist Church]'s church camp is on 11-14 June. original plan is for The Wife and i to go together on Friday evening, missing the first half of camp, but she suddenly has a conference to attend so looks like i'll be going alone. pray for a good time of bonding with my fellow church members. work takes me away from church so often, i don't really have time to get to know people properly.

ok, i think that's enough news for now. 'till the next blog post, God bless! =)